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jakebe
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genesis_w's LiveJournal entry about recent troubles she's had with Christian-bashing.
Hmm. This *is* sticky.
The current political and spiritual climate in America doesn't have much room for tolerance on either side because the angry and the fearful are becoming louder and louder. The political situation in our country, specifically, is more geared towards the perpetuation of fear and hate than reasonable discussion, truly tolerant behavior, and the ability to respect and disagree at the same time. I believe this is why everyone's having such a hard time, especially Christians who are in social groups where there are a lot of liberals and minorities.
Reading over the post you pointed to in this entry told me a lot about the views your family holds, and I have to admit to being surprised. :) I thought you were more OK with homosexuality than that, and now that I see the true nature of your beliefs I can...deal and think accordingly.
The Christian view is that homosexuality is wrong; it's right there in the Bible (though Jesus never touched the issue himself -- as far as I know Paul did, and there might be some Old Testament stuff under the Mosaic Law) and there's not much of a way around that. And if you hold to that view, all right. I respect that. However, the dilemma is not your personal beliefs; you of course have the right to practice what you believe without too much bother from the government, local authorities or other political/social entities. The problem is, a lot of gays in this country don't feel equal treatment under the our current government, which is *promised* to us under the Constitution.
Faith (or the lack of it) guides many things, and has a basic influence on who we are all as people. The entire reason people *came* to the United States over 300 - 400 years ago is to be free to practice what they have faith in without persecution, and to foster an environment where others could do the same. This got sidetracked early, what with the Salem Witch Trials and other American parallels to the Inquisition, but, you know...the *ideals* were there. And they still are, for many people.
There's something wrong when Wiccans can't be recognized by the Armed Forces for their beliefs. There's something wrong when gay couples aren't allowed to see each other in hospitals, or even barred from the funerals of their partners, because there's no provision in the law to allow them the right. There's something wrong when gay couples can't build loving families because it's 'illegal'. And that something is letting religion into the field of lawmaking, where it honestly has no business.
In order for America (and equality) to work, the government has to take a religion-neutral, almost atheist stance to the way it builds itself. Of course, the Christian values of compassion, gentleness and love hopefully influence the decision-making, but no one religion's moral code should be allowed to hold sway. Under Bush, that's what's going on, and it's hurting a lot of people.
Your husband mentioned that he was bothered by the prideful attitude of those of us living in sin. I agree that the 'gay pride' movement probably doesn't help ease the tensions between us heathens and honest-to-God, fearing Christians. But that doesn't mean what we're aiming for isn't right. Gay people don't *have* this far-reaching agenda to take your children and make them like Pier One Imports. We don't own Hollywood, and we certainly don't have any sway politically. All we want is the same opportunity and respect that you would give anyone else. To me, a certain level of respect and compassion is...automatic, simply on the basis of being a fellow human being. And to me (speaking as a former Christian), this is the essence of Christ's teachings.
I'm definitely not going to get into a theological debate, here, because chances are your husband would dance circles around me. :) My understanding of Christianity, however, is that the entire aim is to be "Christ-like". That's what Christian really means; being as much like Jesus as our imperfect selves will allow.
When I read about Jesus in the Bible and I look at Christians today, from my perception a good many of them (*especially* the politically-active ones) are very far from the mark. Jesus didn't have a particular interest in making the political world fit his vision; his ideas and his purpose were above and beyond those. He wasn't concerned with law, he was concerned with people. He hung out with harlots and sinners. He drank wine at parties. He got into public shouting-matches with revered religious leaders of the time. And he did all of this because he believed it was right, that a person's individual soul and peace of mind were more important than adherence to any power going; that God and connection to him was above dogma. The only two rules Jesus gave (again, there might be more, but these are the ones that made the biggest impression) were "Love God with everything you have." and "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Love, that was it. That was the most important thing to Christ. And as Christians, it would seem to me to be the thing that most would try to cultivate.
Is it love that motivates Bush to bomb Iraq based on (at best) faulty intelligence? Is it love that motivates Fred Phelps to bring his congregation and shout "God hates fags!" at public schools and funerals? Is it love that's caused this political climate, this so intensely-divided nation?
What are the Christian's answer to this? Christ didn't judge the downtrodden; he judged those people who were using fear, hatred and dogma to bully the masses into submission. He saved his anger for those who abused their power to help themselves out over all others. If you look at the corporate connections of Bush, his Vice-President, and his Cabinet, I think you can see the correlation.
I can't speak for anyone else, but that's why I'm personally angry. I view Bush as a hypocrite who uses Christianity as a club to mold the country into his narrow-minded view. To me, he's the modern-day equivalent of a Pharisee. And most Christians seem completely fine with the idea of letting the country be ruled by his exclusionary, unequal view of the world. A lot of people (I thought) that you consider friends are being personally, negatively affected by this, and it's making them scared, and it's making them angry. It doesn't excuse the lashings and personal attacks, but I hope it makes it more understandable.
A lot of your neighbors are afraid for themselves and the rest of the world at what's being done in the name of Christianity. And fear, as we all know, drives people to do the most unreasonable things. What can we do to bring reason back to the political discussion and climate? Well, we could *all* try to be more Christ-like, for one.
genesis_w's LiveJournal entry about recent troubles she's had with Christian-bashing. Hmm. This *is* sticky.
The current political and spiritual climate in America doesn't have much room for tolerance on either side because the angry and the fearful are becoming louder and louder. The political situation in our country, specifically, is more geared towards the perpetuation of fear and hate than reasonable discussion, truly tolerant behavior, and the ability to respect and disagree at the same time. I believe this is why everyone's having such a hard time, especially Christians who are in social groups where there are a lot of liberals and minorities.
Reading over the post you pointed to in this entry told me a lot about the views your family holds, and I have to admit to being surprised. :) I thought you were more OK with homosexuality than that, and now that I see the true nature of your beliefs I can...deal and think accordingly.
The Christian view is that homosexuality is wrong; it's right there in the Bible (though Jesus never touched the issue himself -- as far as I know Paul did, and there might be some Old Testament stuff under the Mosaic Law) and there's not much of a way around that. And if you hold to that view, all right. I respect that. However, the dilemma is not your personal beliefs; you of course have the right to practice what you believe without too much bother from the government, local authorities or other political/social entities. The problem is, a lot of gays in this country don't feel equal treatment under the our current government, which is *promised* to us under the Constitution.
Faith (or the lack of it) guides many things, and has a basic influence on who we are all as people. The entire reason people *came* to the United States over 300 - 400 years ago is to be free to practice what they have faith in without persecution, and to foster an environment where others could do the same. This got sidetracked early, what with the Salem Witch Trials and other American parallels to the Inquisition, but, you know...the *ideals* were there. And they still are, for many people.
There's something wrong when Wiccans can't be recognized by the Armed Forces for their beliefs. There's something wrong when gay couples aren't allowed to see each other in hospitals, or even barred from the funerals of their partners, because there's no provision in the law to allow them the right. There's something wrong when gay couples can't build loving families because it's 'illegal'. And that something is letting religion into the field of lawmaking, where it honestly has no business.
In order for America (and equality) to work, the government has to take a religion-neutral, almost atheist stance to the way it builds itself. Of course, the Christian values of compassion, gentleness and love hopefully influence the decision-making, but no one religion's moral code should be allowed to hold sway. Under Bush, that's what's going on, and it's hurting a lot of people.
Your husband mentioned that he was bothered by the prideful attitude of those of us living in sin. I agree that the 'gay pride' movement probably doesn't help ease the tensions between us heathens and honest-to-God, fearing Christians. But that doesn't mean what we're aiming for isn't right. Gay people don't *have* this far-reaching agenda to take your children and make them like Pier One Imports. We don't own Hollywood, and we certainly don't have any sway politically. All we want is the same opportunity and respect that you would give anyone else. To me, a certain level of respect and compassion is...automatic, simply on the basis of being a fellow human being. And to me (speaking as a former Christian), this is the essence of Christ's teachings.
I'm definitely not going to get into a theological debate, here, because chances are your husband would dance circles around me. :) My understanding of Christianity, however, is that the entire aim is to be "Christ-like". That's what Christian really means; being as much like Jesus as our imperfect selves will allow.
When I read about Jesus in the Bible and I look at Christians today, from my perception a good many of them (*especially* the politically-active ones) are very far from the mark. Jesus didn't have a particular interest in making the political world fit his vision; his ideas and his purpose were above and beyond those. He wasn't concerned with law, he was concerned with people. He hung out with harlots and sinners. He drank wine at parties. He got into public shouting-matches with revered religious leaders of the time. And he did all of this because he believed it was right, that a person's individual soul and peace of mind were more important than adherence to any power going; that God and connection to him was above dogma. The only two rules Jesus gave (again, there might be more, but these are the ones that made the biggest impression) were "Love God with everything you have." and "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Love, that was it. That was the most important thing to Christ. And as Christians, it would seem to me to be the thing that most would try to cultivate.
Is it love that motivates Bush to bomb Iraq based on (at best) faulty intelligence? Is it love that motivates Fred Phelps to bring his congregation and shout "God hates fags!" at public schools and funerals? Is it love that's caused this political climate, this so intensely-divided nation?
What are the Christian's answer to this? Christ didn't judge the downtrodden; he judged those people who were using fear, hatred and dogma to bully the masses into submission. He saved his anger for those who abused their power to help themselves out over all others. If you look at the corporate connections of Bush, his Vice-President, and his Cabinet, I think you can see the correlation.
I can't speak for anyone else, but that's why I'm personally angry. I view Bush as a hypocrite who uses Christianity as a club to mold the country into his narrow-minded view. To me, he's the modern-day equivalent of a Pharisee. And most Christians seem completely fine with the idea of letting the country be ruled by his exclusionary, unequal view of the world. A lot of people (I thought) that you consider friends are being personally, negatively affected by this, and it's making them scared, and it's making them angry. It doesn't excuse the lashings and personal attacks, but I hope it makes it more understandable.
A lot of your neighbors are afraid for themselves and the rest of the world at what's being done in the name of Christianity. And fear, as we all know, drives people to do the most unreasonable things. What can we do to bring reason back to the political discussion and climate? Well, we could *all* try to be more Christ-like, for one.
